229. THERAPY and ASTROLOGY with clinical therapist Sarah Mireles

In this episode Arwynne is in conversation with clinical therapist SARAH MIRELES discussing therapy and astrology.

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Transcript

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Welcome to the Starzology Astrology Podcast. I'm your host, Arwen O'Neill, and today we have an interview with Sarah Morellis. She is an therapist who works with neurodivergent teenagers, children, and their parents, working to find ways to destigmatize and treat behavioral issues that come up with these types of people. And we are talking about the intersection of therapy and astrology and how we can use astrology to help depathologize and discuss issues that are otherwise difficult to talk about. I hope you all enjoy my interview with Sarah Morales. Hi Sarah. Thanks for joining me. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. Yeah, we're really excited to have you as well. So you reached out to us after you listened to our addiction podcast, I believe. Is that correct? Exactly. Yeah. I thought it was you made some really cool connections between how astrology can influence our addiction brain and it kind of like helps us understand our internal drivers and not directly what may lead to behavior, but like what can definitely help us understand and the influence. Yeah. Yeah, we we describe it as um as a metaphorical language, and it gives us the freedom to describe ourselves in ways that normal psychological conversational styles don't really allow for. And uh, I mean, obviously there are also spiritual aspects and synchronicity and why does it work? But the fact is it does work and it gives us a really great framework for being able to talk about things that normally we wouldn't uh we wouldn't have the language to discuss. So let our audience know what it is that you do. Absolutely. Well, um, I am a therapist. I'm a clinical therapist. I've been practicing for about 10 years. I really honed my like niche in neurodivergence. So I work a lot with populations who are diagnosed with like OCD, obsessive-compulsive personality traits, obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, um, ADHD, um, and autism a lot with what we call like a PDA profile, stands for pathological demand avoidance. I mean, I work mainly a lot with teens, young adults and parents who are kind of navigating the challenges associated with raising a neurodivergent teen. I really I coach parents. So I during my time with private practice, I developed a coaching program specifically for parents to help them understand their teen, their behavior, and help with communication to help basically guide their teen on their journey towards independence and independent adulthood. That's amazing. That's just a little snapshot. Yeah. Yeah, excellent. Well, what made you um interested in the overlap between astrology and therapy? That's a really good question. I think like all a lot of humans, I think, that were generally interested in like finding connections, finding patterns and understanding how the brain works and why certain, you know, behavioral patterns develop, or you know, what basically why we do what we do. Yeah. And, you know, just like therapy, like astrology really helps provide a lens for us to look through like a person and and their brain and understanding of the world and how they move about the world. And you know, it's another avenue to explore. Absolutely. Yeah. Have you and um have you introduced astrology into your practice as a therapist yet? Or is that something that you're thinking about doing in the future? That's a great question, too. It I do when my client is open to it. Yeah. It's same, every every person, every person is so different. Yeah. And what resonates for some may not resonate with others. And it's just like two, it's how open the client is to looking at things through a different lens. It's the same reason if I bring like, you know, religious teachings into a session, if that's going to serve the client, if I feel the client may have a stronger connection and resonate more right with astrology to help them understand how their brain or how their teen's brain might work, it's it's to help too. I wanted to bring this up, right? To to reduce the stigma. Yeah. Instead of a clinical diagnosis, there's a lot of like just negative association when you say, Hey, my child has ADHD or autism, you know, instead kind of reframing it to be like, oh no, these are common, you know, character traits. Absolutely. I think we we do the same with astrology. I mean, obviously, we've talked a lot in in the podcast about like what are the most stigmatized signs? Why are these why are these stereotypes that exist? Like what's what's wrong with being a Scorpio or a Capricorn, or why are Virgos considered, you know, the nitpickiest sign in the zodiac, or why are Tauruses stubborn? And and it's obviously not quite as as serious as an autism uh diagnosis, but it is it is interesting that we can use these these um these phrases and these commonly sort of used buckets to describe people, but also to stigmatize. So we we really need to be very careful when we use language because words are very important. If you if you give someone a diagnosis, you can you can sort of frame how they think about themselves. So it's it's the same with any kind of language that you use to describe someone. You need to be very um, as you well know, very careful about how you how you frame something as being something you're stuck with. Or is this uh a set of a set of different um tools that you can use to go through life that are just not the same tools as the person next to you, right? Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yep. It's it's a little bit different to say, like, hey, if like you're an Aries, like your kid's an Aries, it's like, you know, they it's just common knowledge, they may be a little bit more scattered or time sensitive versus like little temperamental. Yeah, versus your kid has ADHD. It's it's it may be a different emotional response. And then that in turn reflects how open a parent may be to receiving the information. Right. So how do you think astrology could be used to help parents reframe behaviors that maybe they previously saw as as stigmatized or difficult or defiance, for example, if we're talking about an Aries or a fiery personality, how do you think that that would be um that would be best approached if they were open to it? I might be like, okay, we're looking at what clinically we may diagnose as like ADHD or OCD, but yeah, a different way of understanding it could be, you know, their sign may be more, or their planet may be like more closer to like Mercury or like Uranus or ADHD where or Mars, where there might be a little bit more impulsivity, more of like a high drive or kind of like a hyperfixation or a hyper focus. Um, and you know, they're certainly not the only child that will have that high drive and the kind of like the impulsivity. And it, you know, it's just a different way of understanding and guiding the parent of like, okay, here's some helpful tools that we would use for a kid with, you know, more impulsivity or trouble concentrating or sitting still. Exactly. Like making the planetary connection or the sign connection to help them understand that they're certainly not alone. Right. And they're certainly it creates kind of a buffer as well, I think, just putting it in a different, in a different framework of language where we can say something like, okay, well, you know, maybe they have Mercury Square Saturn or something like that, where Mercury tends to be, obviously, as the planet of communication, it tends to, it tends to really show up in the charts of people who have either uh learning disabilities, uh, difficulty um grasping language early on. And, you know, maybe Mercury is retrograde in their chart, or maybe it's afflicted by a one of the outer planets or or you know, part of a T square or something like that, not to throw like a ton of astrological jargon at you, but these are things that we see with an afflicted Mercury a lot of the time, and they can relate to sort of early, early difficulties in in um communication or in keeping up with the communication speed that uh that they're expected to in school or with their peers, right? And so framing it with parents as something like this isn't this isn't uh you know a diagnosis, this isn't like there's nothing wrong with them. They're just learning at a different speed. And I think that's probably something that you would you would approach in a similar way, whether whether using astrology or not, by saying like they're just different. This isn't, you know, it's not a curse kind of thing. Yeah. Same with like when you see OCD or obsessive compulsive, you know, we we see a lot of like traits or characteristics where uh it's kind of we're dealing with like the perfectionism piece that we're trying to, it's hard for you know, some teens to like move on from a task if it's not perfect. There's kind of rigidity around like rules and how we do things, like that's more connected with what we call obsessive compulsive personality traits, right? Where it's like there's this huge morality piece to it where it's I have to do this because it's the right way to do things, yeah, which can be really, really, really stressful for parents who just you don't want to move on, like let's just go to school or like those let's just move on. Like, but parents are like, I mean I'm the one making the rule. Why is why is my kid trying to keep me to this moral uh uh task that they've that they've decided is more important than what I want. Exactly. It can be really frustrating for parents to be like, okay, so my kid has OCD or they have OCPD. And you know, they're looking at it through more of like a even though it is classified if it's intense enough a disability, they're looking through it like a disability lens. And it's hard to have compassion when we don't when someone's brain is like operating in a completely different way than how we would think about things or do things. Right. Yeah. So yeah, if we could look at the astrological chart and be like, okay, OCD or might be more associated with like Mercury or Saturn, like inner rules and like you know, fear of like being wrong or fear of experiencing shame. Totally. But yeah, wanting to do everything perfectly to not experience that. And that's a very human experience to not want to experience as a Virgo. I can very much relate to that. On the positive side, I was the girl who always went into my mother's closet and organized her shoes by color, or like I would untangle all of her necklaces and just sit on the floor and you know, go through the jewelry box until it was finished. Of course, you know, as an adult, those those perfectionist behaviors then end up being great. They go on the resume that's like, oh, you're you're detail oriented, you're perfectionist. That's great. You know, it's an adaptation, but taken to an extreme, any of these, you know, wonderful skills that we kind of appreciate in modern society. Oh, you can focus. Well, yeah, that's great until it's hyper focus, and then you, you know, you don't have control over what you focus on, right? It's all a matter of degrees. Yeah, exactly. And I we also like don't give enough credit to the strengths, I think, associated with again fractionism or like having like good attention to detail. And so, too, with astrology, you can more it gives you more permission to focus on the strengths. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, I mean, we don't want to consider, you know, um something that's a diagnosis, like kind of a secret superpower. But at the same time, if you're dealing with parents, focusing on the positive, I would think has to be part of the part of the toolbox, right? It's like, okay, maybe, maybe the kid has, you know, hyper focus on on certain things, but put them to use in in a positive way, right? Like, what are they hyper-focused on? Well, you know, like give them a little job, make them, you know, make them feel needed and wanted and appreciated for for something that uh in another context could be annoying and and wasting time. And you know, why why are you doing that kind of thing, right? And I can speak too from like personal experience too. Like I I have an ADHD diagnosis. My partner has an OCD, obsessive compulsive personality diagnosis. And we each come with our own unique strengths and you know, shortcomings as well. But it it does help to balance and it balances the picture of like, okay, yes, with an ADHD diagnosis airy sign, it's like very scattered and like very impulsive, which can lead to sometimes really bad decision making or not thinking things through all the way. Right. Um but it also comes with like you know, more creativity and you know, excitement and emotional sensitivity to the needs of others. Absolutely like the OCD, it like you know, it brings to the relationship, it brings a sense of like more order to the airy sign and like um structure, which is very much needed too. Definitely something as like time blindness. Right, right, totally. And in a in a relationship, obviously, that would be there's a period of negotiation where you get to, you know, understand each other's habits and each other's, you know, for lack of a better word, strengths and weaknesses and what you're bringing to the table and how you can kind of help each other and fill in the blanks where you know what might be a weakness for you is something that you can lean on for them. I would think with a parent-child relationship, that's a little more difficult because obviously uh the parent is is still trying to teach them how to be, how to perform as a human in the world, right? And you don't always want to be like, well, your way is right too. Yeah. But I think uh I think astrology and and you know any other kind of um metaphorical language that we might that we might bring into the table would give at least um the ability to put a positive positive spin, right? Where it's not just like, okay, well, this is your diagnosis, we have to deal with this for the rest of our lives and and it's stigmatizing, right? Absolutely. I mean, you're right, with the parent-child dynamic, it certainly is more challenging. So I think too, with you know, society expectations and what is expected, quote unquote, to look like to be a good parent. But when you have a teen with maybe a more severe like autism diagnosis or the pathological demand avoidance piece, it can feel very shameful for parents when, like, okay, my kid's not brushing their teeth, or they're not, they they don't want to get dressed. They don't, they can't go to school on time. And so, you know, for parents, they have to deal with kind of a lot of feelings of shame or inadequacy around society expectations. But I think too, with astrology and you know, hopefully like a good therapist, you're you're able not to take on that society responsibility so personally. And you're able to kind of take a step back to be like, okay, are my child's basic needs being met? And to if we could just focus on the core like basic needs and giving praise to the to the parent for what they are able to do, right? Given the disability or given the difficulty or sometimes diagnosis. Yeah. So I think too, or astrology, we look at it through like the star and you know, all of like the signs, and it's it's I think it gives it parents permission to step back from that the shame or the society expectation. Absolutely. You know, just focus on like well, here's what I am doing, and here are here are the strengths within that. Right, right. Because I mean the the astrological chart is a complete combination of negative aspects or hard hard aspects, as we say, like difficult squares, oppositions, and you know, t squares and and all those kind of like difficult uh configurations, but it's also composed of trines and sextiles and conjunctions and and every chart has a combination of all positive and negative, right? So you're never gonna have a chart where it's just nothing but like negative aspects. That's literally not possible, right? Um so we always say, well, if you're if you're let's say your moon has a bunch of negative aspects to it and and you had the moon is typically associated with childhood and and the relationship with the mother. So if you, you know, have like say moon square Pluto or moon square Saturn or something like that, where that really would indicate a a difficult relationship with the mother and and difficulty, you know, feeling loved or feeling appreciated for who you are, and and that's something that you would carry through to adulthood. Well, we would say, okay, well, what else is the moon doing in the chart? Maybe there is a positive aspect to something like Jupiter or whatever, and uh, and that would sort of ameliorate the the negative aspect. And you'd say, okay, well, let's lean into to this positive aspect and see how that could be used as an outlet. So, you know, maybe you're always going to feel your first instinct might be to feel like, oh, I'm not good enough because, you know, something that happened in adulthood is is triggering this sort of you know maternal neglect or or whatever you felt in in childhood that that was uh this sort of not good enough kind of feeling. Um, leaning into something that that you do find, you know, positive in your emotional outlets, like feeling that you're that your mother didn't love you enough. Maybe that makes you more nurturing towards other people because you recognize that in others, right? And that's a that's a way that we can use astrology to sort of say, okay, you you know, you have these afflictions, you have these these difficult aspects, but you also have these outlets that you can that you can turn around a negative experience or a negative feeling, because obviously some of these things don't come from an actual experience, they just come from your perspective, your your your perception of of that uh of that world that you grew up in, and using that as uh, well, you know, the ability to see it in others. So you can be helpful and you can be more compassionate and more empathetic. Yeah, it's like a strength, strengths-based language. Totally. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so one thing that um that we've talked about, we've talked about learning disabilities. There's also um the aspect of um sort of emotional regulation. Do you deal with that a lot in your practice as well? Um, very much. Emotion regulation. It's that's one of the core foundational principles that we have to teach, not just for teens, but for parents as well. Yeah, I imagine. Parents can't regulate, they're not gonna give a good, you know, response to the teen. The teen is gonna pick up on that energy and they're gonna shut down. And with like pathological demand avoidance, it's sometimes it's it's about feeling, and I think we all have feel this to a degree, needing to feel like we have some type of control, you know, over our environment. Right. And have like we have some type of autonomy or choice. And so if a teen picks up on sometimes a parent is, you know, taking away their autonomy, that's gonna be very dysregulating. Right. And so we want like sometimes the pay the parents we have to teach how to self-regulate in order to access like the logic or the thinking brain to be like, okay, no, my my team just he wants choice, he wants autonomy. So I have to like maintain my composure to be able to respond in a way that they will be receptive to. Absolutely. I think even in perfectly um, you know, neurotypical teenagers, there's there's puberty. There, there are hormones, right? And there's there are pressures of school and social media and uh you know, things that when their parents were growing up maybe didn't even exist, that they had to, you know, that they don't even know how their child is getting through the day on their on their phone every day, having to deal with the these these pressures that didn't uh that weren't even factors in their childhood. So yeah, I can imagine it's uh even more difficult when you just exponentially more difficult when you add uh neurodivergence. Yeah. Yeah, and not just, you know, we're not just teaching emotion regulation, but we're also teaching for the teen, primarily too for parents to be able to implement this at home to create a culture of safety within the home. Right. Um mental flexibility, being able to be flexible in response to changes, changes in mood fluctuation. Exactly. Or um being open, learning how to be open to feedback if something's not going a certain way. And so we're trying to teach like more mental flexibility, mental openness to changes. And we're really, I think too, what astrology can help with too is just like we're the goal is to maintain the relationship as a safe priority. And that's the facilitator of change in the home, is maintain being able to maintain that relationship. And if astrology can give us a lens to help us keep the relationship first, not like an us versus them mental mentality. It's not like how do we fix you, it's how do we understand you, first of all, and then how do we move forward together and and and deal with what what we're seeing, but also learn how to speak to each other in a way that's not stigmatizing or pathologizing or accusatory. Yeah, this is just what my teens brain needs to actually hear me. Yeah, exactly. What do you think never neurodivergent teens wish their parents understood most about them? Oh my God, that's such a great question. Well, obviously, you know, I can't speak for all neurodivergent teens. Um, but I think there is there there's this I think it's not like teens are intentionally trying to be difficult or not do things or just being oppositional. I think there's literally like there are basic needs that are sometimes not being met and not always the right communication ability to get those needs met. I think if there is one thing that I think parent they wish parents would understand is that like this is there is a really a nerve a nervous system response happening, a brain's in response to like threat or per perceived threat. And so it's not that our teens don't want to do things that they're asking. It's just there is there's just an added layer of difficulty because of a nervous system response. Yeah. It's not that they're it's not that they're refusing to to obey or to to comprehend, it's there's there's a disconnect of of comprehension. Yeah. Sometimes there's there's something very neurological going on. Yeah. Yeah. If we could, you know, learn how to all of us kind of like self-regulate, then we might have a much easier time. Yeah. Well, with or without astrology, what is like give us an example of a success story, something that you've seen work really well in in a family that you that you are proud of, that you had something to do with that you've that you've witnessed that makes you happy and gives you hope. Oh my gosh. So such a good question. So I worked with a family whose, yeah, I mean, it's it seems so simple, but it's it's really not, given all the like the layers and complexity to you know how someone's brain operates. But um I, you know, worked with a teen and family who like the teen wasn't showering, they weren't brushing their teeth. Um, they would, you know, stay in the house most of the time. Um, and you know, and we tried lots of different things. We tried like behavior charts, rewards charts, we tried, you know, having a schedule, a routine where they had the teen had to check in with the parents every day to ensure they were doing it. And like nothing we were trying was working. But I think, you know, as soon as we we discovered, okay, there was this piece where this huge like you know, drive for autonomy where the teen they needed more kind of freedom of choice, but from like a behavioral lens and therapy, we're taught like, no, like you had kind of have to do what we say, and like this is like there are consequences to it. Sometimes a very Saturnian uh sort of level to it, like rigidity and structure and rules, organization rules, it just typically works for most teens. It works for most kids. That's why we do it. Yeah, punishment. Yeah, punishment, right? And the the fear, fear, but when you look through it at a different lens of like, okay, no, my this teen is just like they need more autonomy and feeling of freedom. Sometimes they need to feel like as a parent, we're on the same level and not above them. Yeah, we can kind of come down on the on their level and like be like, okay, no, we're gonna we're gonna create more choice here. We're actually gonna give you more autonomy. So, you know, we come up with a system of like, okay, here are some choices about how you can brush your teeth. And I'm gonna give you the option of like, even like it sounds really weird, but this is where we were. Do you want me to brush your teeth for you, or do you want to brush your teeth? Can we brush our teeth in the bed? Can I bring you a cup to spit into it? You know, choice over the time of day, choice over what you brush your teeth with, or even too, like for picky eaters, providing more choice with like, here are some options, like, and like being less like you need to do this, but taking a step back and like using like more visuals and like sensory tools to help increase that sense of autonomy and choice. It works. It's it's strange how it works sometimes when you pull back. And I think too, at first it's kind of cringy for parents. It's like, no, like I'm I'm the authority, like I need my team to do what I'm saying. But it does require a bit of a mindset shift. I think astrology can help with like that mindset shift of like this is which is what my team needs. Yeah. And so providing what we it's we call it in their accommodations, providing more accommodations sometimes can be useful. And so now, you know, after working and making all those accommodations, the teen started slowly to do things more independently. They started, yeah, turning on the shower on their own. They started, you know, brushing, like deciding to brush their teeth at least a couple times a week on their own. And it's like these this really small wins that we really, you know, we we can't ignore. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, never ignore a win. Yeah. And so that's, I mean, yeah, that's I think one of the stories I'm most proud of. I love yeah. That's fantastic. Um, well, last question. Alison and I, we always say that uh astrology isn't predictive, it is descriptive. And we use it to to describe what is going on, what has happened, and to use it as a lens to understand the world and to understand ourselves. And uh I believe that anything that you're that you're doing with um with children and by extension parents is not about predicting who the child will become, but understanding who they are now and how we can move forward into adulthood. And I mean, I don't I don't know anyone who says, Oh, my childhood was, you know, like my teenage years were like the best years ever. Like most people look back and they're like, Oh, thank God that's over. You know, I wouldn't relive being in middle school, for example, for you know, any amount of money. How do you think that um that you or or any any therapists can introduce astrology or or any kind of metaphorical language to help you know, help with that lens, that lens of understanding versus uh predicting and and diagnosing, even? I want to just make sure I understand the question too. It's how can we uh like incorporate astrology into the learning environment for parents to kind of conceptualize what their teen is going through, yeah, and to not look at it through a prescriptive lens, but more through a lens of of understanding and kind of like growth mindset. Yeah. I think like any therapy like session and like working with parents and helping them conceptualize what their teen is going through. I think you know, we've been doing it, and a lot of therapists do it. I think in most therapy sessions, is to use kind of sometimes metaphorical language and to look through like a lens of this is like not black and white thinking. This is not an indicator of your child's future if they're experiencing difficulty now. This is just like a learning experience. It's a learning experience for all of us. And just because your child is dealing with something difficult now, it's not a precursor determinant for the rest of their life. Same with the stars and moon signs, and like it's it's always changing. It's not predetermined. Yeah. It's you know, we go through seasons of our lives and and and changes. And as we learn and grow, we have new experiences, our thought process and how we view the world, how we view ourselves can change. And the more we understand ourselves and other people around us, the the better we can relate to each other and help each other. Exactly. Yeah, it's not a black or white, this not person's not good or bad. Right. But there's so much gray, and there's so much that can be learned from other ways of thinking. And everyone's brain is different. The brain is so complicated. And we've got this narrow, sort of rigid way that society expects people to be. And um yeah, it doesn't work for everybody. Definitely not. No, they're all sorts of gray. I think the more we can make sure our parents and our teens understand that of like this is this is not wrong. Yeah, this is unique, it's different, it has unique strengths. And isn't it fun to get to know this this new person you brought into the world? They're not exactly what you expected, but nobody is, right? Absolutely. Then we can appreciate, you know, our loved ones for being different. Absolutely. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. This has been fantastic. Oh my gosh, no, thank you, thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it. Absolutely your time. Yeah, and we'll we'll hope to hope to have you back sometime in the future. Oh my god, I would love that. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Best of luck with your practice, and we will talk to you soon. Thank you so much to our listeners for getting through the podcast. This has been the Starzoogy Astrology Podcast. You can find us at starzoogy.com. You can get our newsletter at starzoogy.com slash newsletter. And also make sure you're following me at Ms. Pink.net. That's M S P-I-N-K.net. I send out my weekly newsletter every Saturday. And you can subscribe to our podcast wherever you get podcasts at Apple Music or Spotify. Also, make sure that you are giving us a like or subscribe or follow, or even better yet, give us a five star review on wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps with the algorithm. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.